18. Re-defining philosophy and how we lost our muse

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Rob

01/08/06 at 04:58 AM

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#16

I gotta say this is all very confusing. All this talk about knowledge and belief. We gotta believe because there is a muse? And we get some knowledge by experiencing the muse. Is that it? What about a justification for the belief? I have trouble saying that Hitler's belief was justified because he truly believed the Aryan race is superior, no matter how true his belief or valid his experience of the Valkyries. In other words, he didn't really have knowledge.

At the same time, there isn't any substance to just saying, "I can conceive of something and therefore it must exist." I can conceive of walking on Mars, but it just hasn't happened yet.

So, I can agree that by hypothesizing and investigating one might attain knowledge, i.e., the justification for a belief that is true.

Todd Park Mohr

01/08/06 at 11:28 AM

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#17

Rob,
I’m very pleased with your important objections. Clearly in this thread we are baiting a debate, and I first want to say that I think debate/discussion is really the best forum for philosophy – better than books or podcasts. To my thinking, the ideal result of debate is maybe a deadlock as opposed to agreement – but one through which by contrast, the strengths and weakness of each side show through more compellingly through the process of testing, objecting, defending, and so on. Agreeable disagreement, or disagreement in the face of understanding the other side is an excellent result of a true dialogue. Maybe the best one.

I know this issue of the “claims of knowledge” and the muse is contentious and begins as early as philosophy itself. There are a number of longstanding positions which have endured and continue to endure. “Idealism”, “Skepticism”, “Empericism”, “Materialism”, “Realism”, and many other “isms” make up these positions. So in an introductory sense it is useful to know the ins and outs of these “isms” in order to develop a more robust sense of your own position and your own philosophy.

In the course of this most recent podcast and this here talk, my goals are merely to give a sense of these “isms” in relation to the thinking of the “existentialist” philosophers – who are going to be my next target for addressing. But these “isms” and the positions they represent start forming at the very beginning of formal philosophy – so they are a consistent problem and an irreducible portion of our subject matter. But what makes philosophy beautiful to me, if I can use that word, is that it is big enough to contain all these different points of view, and nourish them simultaneously through meaningful debate.

I’d like to clarify if I might some aspects of your objection in relation to some of my statements in the podcast or here about knowledge. Firstly I share your distaste for the word belief and what it represents. I don’t believe in belief. If you listen carefully I point this out in contrasting belief with openness. Openness on the other hand I do think is a useful tool. For my own personal position on this stuff, I would never suggest that anyone “believe” anything on the basis of muse, myth, revelation, or on the basis of “just because it can be conceived.” So I personally am glad to affirm 100% all of your objections. But I don’t think it makes the problem of these “isms’ go away and the usefulness of investigating them. In my own way of looking at it I tend to view this whole business of the muse, of myth, of art, subjectivity, and the right brain (I think that is the creative side), as boiling down to an ability to think metaphorically, and in the face of a certain kind of openness. That’s all. It isn’t in any way my aim to drag philosophy into and under the tyranny of this right brained stuff (as in your example of Hitler), but rather to drag the muse into the light of philosophy and its analysis.

What do you think of all this?

Rob

01/08/06 at 01:11 PM

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#18

Todd, thanks for the heartfelt response, which I really do appreciate. Let me say that this is a great forum, and I want to thank you for your leadership. You and the other contributors to this forum get it and that is great.

What I think about your post is that I like the right brain - left brain analogy. Another one is the razor's edge, isn't it? It's like being on a rock wall and making the decisive move. Sometimes the move just comes from some place inside that knows it's time to get moving. The thrill is amazing and it can be right there, even the most mundane of the things we do---and write about.

We in the West get so much criticism for rationalism and Cartesian thinking, not just from the French post modernists but from all of the Occidentialists. It's a bad rap. We have a long (to the extent that anything in the US is long-lived) tradition of non-rationalism. Look at the religious founders, Mormons, fundamental Christians, etc. Bad examples--one could even say the second invasion of Iraq was a romantic departure from Western dualism based on an irrational belief that "democracy" would somehow change centuries of behavior (You can see I have some misgivings about taking a right-brained leap sometimes). Better examples are Whitman, T.S. Elliot, Hemingway, Faulkner, Dylan, Garcia, Barlow, McCarthy, Kerouac, Wolfe, and on and on.

Back to philosophy, aesthetics and ethics--Bravo! It all comes down to ethics at some point in a philosophy. Personally, I believe that it is unethical to be ugly in the Keatsian sense. To me, beauty is often appreciated when confronted with the unexpected, the muse. However, I often found that the dream diary and even the late night inspiration needs the light of day.

Cheers from London.

Todd Park Mohr

01/08/06 at 01:55 PM

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#19

Absolutely, well said Rob.

Kathy Lange

01/18/06 at 09:16 PM

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#20

Why apologize for the gift you offer? Hey, Todd...your philosophy podcasts are FUN! You let us know right off the bat that you were not an expert nor a guru, so let's just keep having all that FUN FUN FUN! The last one about ethics and aesthetics happened to be my fav, ya know! Don't be worried that we are going to discover that you are really Chancy (Peter Seller's character) in the film BEING THERE!!!! LOL!!!

You haven't read much that's been written past the 1900s? I ALMOST brought you a book to the Fox Theater in Boulder last Friday night, but I hadn't finished it. I find books rather synchronously. This book on The Gospel Of Mary Magdalene jumped out at me and it's amazing...especially how close it is to New Age philosophy. I am not at all religious, I just love to read about how people think, but I have been interested in the Feminine lately (I turned "Crone" this year - 50!!!) and having devoured many New Age-y books, I found this gospel fascinatingly current as far as the "New Age Movement" is concerned.

BTW, ...

A mind-bending book, and one that would be an accelerant for debates here, is one that I read in college by Julian Jaynes called THE ORIGIN OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN THE BREAKDOWN OF THE BICAMERAL MIND. Has anyone read this? I think I need to trip off to the library for another reread. Get a glimpse here:http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php ... it's FUN!

For a guy who bristles at the word "spirituality", you sure have been a catalyst for me to reconnect with my spirit which suffered lately due to either major disappointment or menopause, not sure which. Hee hee. The point is, my spirit craves FUN... FUN is uplifting ... and your music, ideas, and art are resonating FUN in my life... Rock & Talk ON!

Kathy Lange, Denver

Rob

01/19/06 at 03:13 AM

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#21

Todd, I echo what has been said. Your podcast--and the blog--the whole package--is one of the best on the net. It is in the sweet spot.

On a personal note, I found your podcast after searching for it amidst the other audio offerings out there--academic tapes, religious creeds, candy-coated scripts of the Dalai Lama, lunatic rants. Your work, on the other hand, is multi-faceted and risky. I had hoped to find you in this medium--and it did! The existence of your work is an expression of my ideal of the social net.

I only vaguely recognized the band name and I'd not heard the music, so I was completely open and just listened to your podcasts--all of them. I caught up around Christmas and have been on real time since then. I went through all of the chapters mostly while working out or going commuting--running in Hyde Park, weights at the local gym, riding the Victoria Line from Belgravia to Euston. I wasn't like I loved or followed every word, although the content is mostly bang on, as they say here. I do love the spirit and the evolution of the work. And I have gone back a few times.

What you are doing is a miraculous contribution to the lives of the folks who receive it and no doubt also to yourself. I don't know where you will take it, but I would be very sad if I could not look forward to this part of your work. I've been looking for your next podcast daily. No pressure.

Well, sorry all, for being personal, but I have to say this is a great thing. Don't take the hemlock, Todd!

UnamunoFan

02/11/06 at 03:23 AM

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#22

Todd,

Advertising, the media, the cult of the beautiful people, is the force which seeks to shout down the Muse. I still believe in the Great Unknown--in the beauty of a mystery beyond simple physical beauty. I wouldn't write off the American life yet. We are more egalitarian, more likely to embrace the new than any other people.

Who else would one turn to for wisdom? Europe, who invented the sensate life? China, whose love or order and hierarchy has smothered all seeking after the unknown, the unproven?

I say we are Walt Whitman's descendants. I say we are the only ones in the world who can pass on his dream, the song of the beautiful self, whoever you may be.

Todd Park Mohr

02/11/06 at 02:40 PM

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#23

I agree enthusiastically with this idea. I think Whitman's great gift is his belief and energy in the moral/spiritual potentialities of America. I do think we are his hiers. Although we do not tend to think of America as a poetic or spiritually potent people, Whitman clearly does. I like bagging on America, because there is oh so much muckracking to be done here, so many glaring flaws which we miss because we are so accustomed to things being a certain way. We are arrogant, but ignorant of our real value, our capicity for real moral and poetic heroism.

disenchanted rhapsody

02/11/06 at 06:00 PM

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#24

Ohhh...such martyrdom.

Come on, Todd. I personally think you are an insurmountable

musical genius. Truly. Instrumentally and lyrically. Your artistry

has been the glue that held me together on more than one

occasion. And also has been the instigator of many soul searching,

tearfilled moments (that's what it's all about right?)

I understand that, perhaps, you may have SO MUCH going on in that

head of yours that funneling it through one channel (music) is

unfair and "inappropriate".

However....I'm sorely disappointed in your latest post:

"Although we do not tend to think of America as a poetic or spiritually potent people, Whitman clearly does. I like bagging on America, because there is oh so much muckracking to be done here, so many glaring flaws which we miss because we are so accustomed to things being a certain way. We are arrogant, but ignorant of our real value, our capicity for real moral and poetic hero"

Don't forget, Todd, that it is because of the great freedoms of this America with it's "glaring flaws" and "ignorance of real value" that we may all be so arrogant as to freely express such a distaste for, what I feel, is the greatest nation on earth. Is there validity in your statements? Certainly. Do I agree we are in need of real moral and

poetic heros? Absolutely. I also strongly believe there is no other continent on which you can stand on that does not also suffer from a decaying moral fiber. We are not alone.

You are a very old soul, Todd. As am I. Perhaps we we're both born a few centuries too late....but "bagging" on anyone or anything is not a responsible route.

I am FIERCELY proud of the country I live in. And I hope I have completely misinterpreted your last post. Since you're a big fan of quotes:

"If you're not part of the solution...you're part of the problem"

shame on you...can you possibly find some redeeming qualities of America? I could start listing them here if you would like?

In the meantime, Mr. Mohr, I'll continue respecting your insight and self-taught philosophy. I admire your bravado.....I only hope to see it put to more positive "ism's"

p.s. I am STILL a number one fan.

Allan Svensson

04/20/08 at 08:56 AM

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#25

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The Restrainer is the Law

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